There seems to be a lot of confusion among neophyte feral Druid tanks about the amount of defense rating that they need to acquire on their gear in order to tank effectively. I have received numerous emails on the subject, as well as repeatedly noticed player specs and gear that are suboptimal due to misconceptions surrounding this topic.
Quick and dirty answer
If you don't care about the rationale behind the answer to the question posed by this article, then here is your simple answer:
A properly specced feral Druid tank needs ZERO defense rating on their gear.
If you care to learn why this is, and why the subject can become so muddled, then read on.
What does defense rating really do?
Like all stats in the combat rating system, defense rating converts into defense skill. Defense skill's effects are summed up nicely on WoWWiki:
Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed, to Block, to Dodge and to Parry for players. This means +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry, Dodge, and Block. The formula is constant across all classes. It further decreases the chance of receiving critical hits from any level attacker by 0.04% per point that the target's Defense skill exceeds the attacker's Weapon Skill.
In terms of tanking, all of these stats are desirable, however the crucial mechanic is the reduction to a mob's critical hit chance.
Why is being crit immune a Big Deal?
Back in 2007 I explained the importance of not being critically hit as follows:
While you may have amazing statistics and the ability to take a massive pounding, even allowing enemies a sliver of chance to critically hit you can have serious consequences when you are raiding. If nothing else, Murphy's Law states that you are going to take a big crit at exactly the wrong time if you allow the possibility to remain open - so why take the risk?Besides your own survival, part of your job as a tank is to make things as easy as possible on your healers.
In fact, being uncrittable is so important that most raids refuse to allow a tank who is not crit immune to run with them: uncrittability is usually the entry bar that is set.
So how do I get crit immune?
Raid bosses possess a 5.6% chance to land a critical strike with every attack, and so to completely eliminate the possibility of absorbing a critical hit you need to reduce that percentage to zero.
Thankfully, as a feral Druid obtaining crit immunity couldn't be easier - all you have to do is invest three talent points in Survival of the Fittest and you will be instantly granted a 6% reduction to your chance of being critically hit.
That's all you need to do to become crit immune - nothing more.
Specced like this, you can tank naked and still never suffer a critical hit - you may die in a hurry.... but that will be due to a lack of health and armor, not because you ate a critical strike.
Okay, so why the confusion?
If it is so easy for a feral Druid to get crit immune, then why is there so much misinformation and confusion out there? The answer is two-pronged: history and other tanking classes' mechanics serve to muddy the water on what ought to be a no-brainer.
Prior to Wrath of the Lich King, Survival of the Fittest only reduced a Druid's chance to be critically hit by 3%, so bear tanks were left scrambling to mix and match gear to make up the remaining 2.6% deficiency however they could. This often led to some crazy gear juggling since leather with +defense was scarce. The result is that players who are not completely up to date on bear tanking remember the games that we had to play to stay crit immune in the last expansion, and just assume that the same is true today.
Further confusing the subject is that fact that all of the plate-wearing tanks need to stack defense rating to become crit immune - they have no "I win" talent to automatically acquire their immunity. This can mistakenly lead tanks that are not intimately familiar with feral mechanics to believe that bears also need to stack defense rating.
So should I just throw away all my defense gear?
Well no - despite not being a crucial stat for feral tanks, defense rating still serves some purpose as an avoidance stat. There is nothing wrong with acquiring the extra miss and dodge chance that defense rating rating bestows, although other stats are generally more desirable. Don't avoid gear with defense rating - just don't go out of your way to jump all over it.
36 comments:
I wonder how long this we're-crit-immune-when-naked state will last. It seems really overpowered to be able to jump in and tank in any gear at all.
So long as they refuse to make actual tanking leather, I'd imagine.
Although that's another debate entirely..... a lot of the leather we tank in is stuff that no right-minded rogue or kitty druid would wear in the first place..... so aren't they already making "tanking leather" - and if so, why not just put proper tanking stats on the bloody stuff?!?
Well, back in the druid defence/resiliance days, I used to be a little bit crittable. A 1/10000 chance of being crit was too tiny to sacrifice other great stats. I was glad I did it - made me realize that all the fuss about being uncrittable is a player created culture, not a blizzard enforced one. Its important for many reasons to distinguish the difference.
Talented uncrittability may seem overpowered but it really isn't. Defence is the best defensive stat for warriors for a long time - for bears, it never was. So it's not as if they're wasting stat allocation like we used to feel. It gives us some more flexibility with gear of course - we can tank in dps gear, while other classes cannot. But in the long run, it really doesnt make that much difference, or make druids particularly OP because of that. I doubt they'll go back on this - with the upcoming savage defense ability, we've gone even futher down a different path.
"Well, back in the druid defence/resiliance days, I used to be a little bit crittable. A 1/10000 chance of being crit was too tiny to sacrifice other great stats."
I have a fun story along those lines.
I used to use a couple of enchants to push me over the top.... well, I got a nice upgrade one week (can't remember what) and slapped it on thinking the tiny bit of critability was too little a risk to worry about.
Well, we were working on the Illidari Council that night, and my job was annoying rogue (veras?) Anyhow, we were having a REALLY smooth run but then the RNG decided to make me it's bitch around 20% on the boss. I ate two crits back to back and died.... obviously the rogue started running around, one-shot my healer and then progressed to others. We wiped and didn't get the kill that night. :(
After that I was always 100% crit proof all the time. Kick ass upgrade be damned.
A question regarding gemming and defence. In yellow slots, i generally use the green +hit +stamina gems to help improve my threat generation from the added hit however according to RAWR, my gear would be better if i was tossing in the green +defence +stamina gems. Thoughts?
In case it matters, my tanking gear is almost all from naxx 25 and i have a number of the best in slots. Sitting at around 37k HP unbuffed, 41% dodge, 70-80% mitigation.
To the poster commenting about def/stam gems in yellow slots:
if you want to match socket colors you have 3 other real choices for that, agi/hit, 16 hit, or hit/expertise.
Personally I use agi/hit gems but def/stam gems are the best EH yellow slot until the patch, at which point hit provides EH through the chance of procing SD
My lazy ass levelled the Druid only to 74, but from what I've seen I can really tank normal instances on the way with my 70 Kitty gear (not top-end, only T4 and a few ZA/badge pieces) as well as with my old Tank gear.
I know that will change nearing 80, but while levelling it doesn't matter a bit, if you have SotF. Probably +STA cloth will do :P
I see everybody preaching how useless def rating is for ferals around every corner, yet on any legitimate gear list, many of the key items are still loaded with defense. In the situation with gems, particularly yellow gems, the fact that def rating gems are still recommended leads me to believe that defense may contribute more that many are led to believe.
The thing that I, and I imagine others, would really like to see is a numerical comparison with respect to avoidance of agility, dodge, and defense, keeping in mind all aspects of defense rating.
@Amandil:
The reason you see +defense on a lot of high end tanking jewelery it that it is itemized for plate tanks, and they gobble up the stat. There really aren't many bear-specific choices, so we end up taking the defense where it's available - since the other choices on tanking rings/necks/trinkets are +parry and +block.
+Defense isn't useless - it's just less optimal than other stats.
I can do a level 80 comparison like that for you some time, I suppose.
It'll probably arrive at relatively the same conclusion as my level 70 version, found here:
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2007/09/on-being-uncrittable.html
(See the heading "Mixing and Matching")
@Karthis:
Thanks for the fast response!
If you were able to scrap something together on the subject it would be greatly appreciated. From all I have read on the subject I do understand why def rating is on our gear and that it does have value.
A "pawn value" type comparison would be more that sufficient, just something to help ferals make at the margin decisions regarding gems and gear.
This is the tanking scale I've been using:
Stamina: 3.19
Agility: 2.54
Armor: 0.59 (leather) 0.12 (other)
Defense: 1.38
Dodge: 1.36
Expertise: 0.71
ya but what about hit? lol. is it worth pulling my +hit +stam gems out for +def +stam gems?
To the post, I think a lot of old world stuff hasn't been updated yet. Often when I go and check out (google) information on a stat, I find outdated information. It is especially hard to find information on it when there is a new patch that changed things.
On the gem thing, I think stamina is overrated. As soon as you have enough you don't really need stamina any more. Defense/stamina gems are pretty worthless to me. I even regemmed all my blue gems from full stamina to dodge/stamina lately. Don't do that now, in 3.1 the agi/stamina gem will be available. Get those.
In yellow I have always socketed hit/agi gems. Mostly from old days when I got an epic to replace a blue, it was best for tanking and also best for cat. Hit was nice to have then. I still have those though. 4 yellow gem slots mean 1% hit. Good for threat and even a lot better in 3.1 with SD.
I actually have an infatuation with the +expertise/+hit gems for yellow slots in my tanking gear.
I don't value +hit in my stat scale because it's not a defensive stat (yet). If you're having threat troubles, it's worth gemming for.
Well, also remember the game keeps changing, and your players keep developing. Your first night in naxx back in early december is not the same as your 3rd successful immortal run. Talking about stats has to be in the context of the game you're playing. For naxx (non-immortal/undying runs) I tank in cat gear. For ulduar PTR testing & Ulduar live, I go in max EH gear, which also includes gemming for stamina (shock horror blashphemy!). Actually, a lot of ferals on the ptr are gemmed up for stamina, for whatever that's worth.
Nothing wrong with coming up with rating scales for our stats, but it really only gets you so far, for the above reasons. When you can do a perfect non-death naxx run, or a run with 19-20 people, it means you out-gear & out-skill the content by so much that you're free to experiment more than ever. Stay flexible and agile with your choices, since so much of your success depends on so much more than your personal stat & gear choices.
@Peter:
Oh yeah - for sure. I would never ever recommend that anyone follow a gear rating scale as gospel while gearing up. It is a guideline, not the absolute authority on what is best for you and what is best for the encounter you're working on. (I have two flavours of tanking gear, and could easily craft a third by subbing in a bit more DPS gear).
@Darksend
Hit/Stam will not help proc SD. If you want a yellow gem to proc SD, it would be crit/stam. Hit doesn't improve the chance to crit.
@Anon:
I've actually been looking into that, and I'm not sure you're 100% correct.
For normal "white" attacks you're correct - hit does not affect crit due to the single-roll system.
There seems to be a fair bit of support behind the idea that special "yellow" attacks use a two-roll system though.... if that is the case then hit (and expertise) would contribute to the uptime of the shield.
Im starting to gem more and more hit in the yellow sockets. Ive been having a threat problem unlike anything I ever had in BC. After looking at WWS im noticing Im missing alot of the mobs, and since we have a 3.0 attack speed in bear, each miss is a fair bit of threat lost. Ive also started dropping stam for agility and both of those changes have upped my threat a great deal.
I hate the fact that we have no bear tanking specific jewelry. I can understand why as you would then encounter the problems that Blizz are trying to avoid by homogenizing gear.
Still couldn't they make Deff rating more useful to druids somehow?
I'm more than fed up with people asking for my deff rating when i volunteer for a dungeon / raid run.
@Karthis ... Could you elaborate on why a 2-roll system would cause +hit to help with SD? I imagine with a single-roll system the one roll determines miss, hit, or crit. In a 2-roll system is the first roll hit or miss followed by a crit-or-not roll? In the case of a single-roll system, wouldn't pushing misses off the table cause a greater % of your attacks to be crits?
@Rahl ... Link SotF and tell them you're uncrittable. If they still ask for def numbers, tell them "no thanks, I don't like to group with ignorant players." Maybe that will teach them.
Ok being noobish here;
What is a 2-roll system?
What is max EH gear?
As towards hit and SD. I see it like this: if you have 100% hit and 50% crit 50% of your actions are crit (white and yellow).
If you have 98% hit and 50% crit, 49% of your actions are crit. So hit does help crit a bit. If not... Then that would mean having 100% crit and 92% hit means you would crit 100% of the time. Now that can't be true... can it?
And on stamina vs hit/agi etc... All my gear enchants have stamina only if it is by far the best in slot enchant or 12 stamina if it is a blue socket.
If in Ulduar I need more stamina I take 1, 2 3 or 4 (including ring) of my polar gear. Loose on threat a fair amount, but will gain major health. So I plan to never enchant/gem for stamina as long as I can sub in/out some items.
@Rahl:
In the one roll system a hit is completely independent of crits. When you push misses/blocks/etc off the table you get more hits, but the exact same number of crits.
In a two-roll system you cannot crit without first hitting - thus stacking hit & expertise enables more opportunity to roll again and score a crit that you see.
@Marino :
EH is "effective health". A lot of tanking sites put great stock in it. The new "Leatherbelly" bear blog is a fan of the system.
Regarding your hit/crit scenarios:
"if you have 100% hit and 50% crit 50% of your actions are crit (white and yellow)."
Not counting blocks, dodges, or parries, yes. (In fact, let's assume for this entire discussion that these mechanics are 0%.)
"If you have 98% hit and 50% crit, 49% of your actions are crit. "
In a one-roll system this is wrong. You will see 48% hits, 2% misses, and 50% crits.
In a two-roll system you're right. You will have 98/100 attacks hit, and then of those hits 49/98 will crit. Thus, 49% hits, 2% misses, and 49% crits.
"Then that would mean having 100% crit and 92% hit means you would crit 100% of the time. Now that can't be true... can it?"
You would get 8% misses and 92% crits in this case.
Wow good discussion, I'm eating this up lol.
Digressing back to an earlier question, Karthis, in your pawn rankings, you put defense as more valuable than dodge. This is the only part I'm still hung up on, since I've read comments pointing to the contrary on other sites:
"So assuming you have more than 76 points of Defense Rating already, it takes 61.5 points to improve avoidance by 1% (0.5% dodge, 0.5% miss.) Defense is therefore worth about 2/3 of a point of dodge or agility, when comparing gear."
Seeing as how this comment seems to equate Dodge and Agility, I have a hard time finding it credible. However, if you could share your reasoning, or source, for your relationship between these stats it would be much appreciated. Thanks much!
Sorry meant to include my source, I can't get html tags right :(
http://thebigbearbutt.com/2008/11/19/feral-druid-level-80-hit-expertise-and-dodge/
Wow, I leave for a day and there is an amazing discussion I miss out on. This was a very good read so far with a lot of good information thank you.
As for the 2-roll system, almost all evidence supports this. Thanks for watching out for me, you explained it way better than I ever could.
One thing you did forget to mention though is white hits are penalized by a crit cap (assuming hit and expertise cap) of 76.7% due to Glancing blows making up ~23.3% of the hit table. Meaning at 8% hit, 57 expertise, and 100% crit, you will never see more than a 76.6% crit chance on your white swings.
Haha the Yahoo Babel Fish translation of that is:
"The Shanghai sea tripod with two handles industry develops the Limited company · Wenling electricity necessary plant, the leading product - - the high efficiency electricity chiller equipment."
???
I nuked the Chinese spam, if only to deny the spammer any possibility of a link :P
Honestly, I hate defense rating. It's just my 2 cents worth, but since the talent redo I just don't see why I wouldn't take agility or something to get more out of my gear.
I'll accept defense on my gear when I can actually use the block and parry it'll give me... It sure would look funny to see me with a hunk of wood strapped to my head though!
hey i've had my feral druid for a long time, and have known since wotlk that the survival of the fittest ability made you crit immune before 3.1, but now with it cut in half, isnt there a 2.6%chance up again if you have no defense rating. I'm jc not that it will matter because a lot of gear in ulduar (rings, necks, capes) that have dodge, stam, etc. in desireable druid stats also have defense on them so it will cancel out.
p.s. I also got to try out the new savage defense yesterday, and i've been twinkering in my head about how to make it as effective as possible, being that it's a very interesting ability, if you have any ideas
It was not "cut in half". The increased armor contribution from leather was reduced by half.... but the rest is still exactly the same.
We're still uncrittable with 3/3 SotF.
Regarding Savage Defense - check out my article from a few days ago (April 14 or so)
ok so there crit immune against Melle classes... what hapens against caster classes? are u not reading its a 6% reduction in MELLE
Mobs don't ever crit with spells, so it's a moot point.
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