Despite knowing damned well that I don't have the time for the grouping required by Dungeons & Dragons Online, I am inches away from logging into the game again. I've re-downloaded the client and installed the whole thing. The DDO icon on my desktop is crooning my name.
I was at peace with my decision to avoid Turbine's relaunched title until yesterday when Syp, curse his eternal soul, brought the concept of permadeath game play in DDO to my attention. It turns out that there is an entire sub-community within the game that delete their characters after a single death, with extremely few exceptions.
I am unbelievably excited by the prospect of this style of MMO game play - it would be like playing my beloved Ancient Domains of Mystery, except co-op and with gorgeous graphics. I've had an on-again off-again love affair with Roguelike games (like ADOM) since I discovered them nearly a decade ago - there's something exhilarating about playing a game where you know that mistakes do not go unpunished, and any second may be your last.
To get more of a taste of the permadeath experience, here are some choice quotes from a recent interview with Lessa, a member of the Sublime permadeath guild on DDO's Sarlona server:
Perma-Death is more about the journey than the destination. When I first began experimenting with Perma-Death play, I was not in a PD guild. I can tell you that the average leet player has no time or patience to wait for you while you experiment with slower-paced play and careful strategy. I was being dragged through quests with no clue as to what the goals were and many times I felt a competitive air about who killed what and how fast. In some cases, things were dead by the time the party reached a common room. I did not enjoy this. I wanted to play in a way that involved the party solving dilemmas as well-formed team.
After a few weeks of frustration, I found the Sublime Perma-Death Guild, on the Thelanis Server. It was perfect for me. Here was an entire guild full of players who thought as I did. Not only that, they taught me to play the game in entirely different way, to approach situations from several angles and to get the most out of resources. Here were people who were not concerned with the kill count at the end of a quest, only that everyone walked out alive and with a sense of accomplishment!
[...]
I remember when the Sublime faced the Dragon in the Vault of Night Series for the first time. I remember the chills as they ran down my spine while I ran up the platform. I had done it before of course, but not like this. This was a Perma-Death party. Entering the quest we all knew full well that we were in an all or nothing situation. This meant we were either going to succeed and make our mark in DDO History or fail and write the biggest epitaph our guild had ever seen. Would you go into a raid knowing that the character you spent months building might never come back? I did just that, and it was the most exciting thing I have done in this game to date.
I've been visiting the forums of both Mortal Voyage and Sublime far too often over the past forty-eight hours.... I don't know how much longer I can hold out.
16 comments:
Do it.
How long and ho repetitive is the leveling process? Depending on how the game is designed, perma-death can quickly become from an exciting gameplay to a massive re-grinding of the same quests/skills/zones to be back where you were when you died. Fun the first 3 times, boring after.....
My experience with it on older MUDs intrigued me at first, then turned me away from the game later as it just added grind.
In Roguelikes you often end up "grinding" the early levels a fair bit. They do have the advantage of (usually) being procedurally generated so the dungeon layouts are randomized, but it's still kind of samey.
I guess it comes down to the frequency of deaths in the end. =P
DO IT! :)
Well so far (from the dizzy heights of level 4) it seems like short manageable chunks of instance are the majority.
I did a few Durks runs with a very knowledgable group and they took about 2 minutes each. Even solo I did it in 6 minutes.
There are a huge amount of low level players which means you aren't letting your group down if you bail since you're very easy to replace.
Permadeath does sound intriguing, I want to be a little less clueless before I make the jump though. There is at least one member of the DDO Cast team who does permadeath, I was listening to her talk about it earlier and it's very tempting.
The one warning I would give though - a lot of new clueless people around so be careful who you group with. You don't want your PD character to turn a corner and see some squishie running towards you with a hundred friends!
@Stabs:
It's encouraging to hear that the high levels of players are persisting in the game - I hope that lasts!
One of the consistent rules in PD guilds seems to be: you only run your PD character with other PD characters.
Warning! Long comment incoming!
I've a long term, secret love affair with Perma-Death.
First, a background issue: I feel Current MMO's suffer extremely badly from a bait-and-switch issue, from being two completely different games mashed together. There's the levelling game - this is what players are first confronted with, and what they learn and play first. Then there's the endgame game, which is totally, utterly different. Grouping requirements suddenly change, goals are completely different, etc. This is a transition that's very shocking for some, and it causes a lot of problems. Further, players who enjoyed the levelling game can be frusterated and let down by the endgame, and players who love the endgame are annoyed and frustrated by the levelling game. Finally, developers are basically developing and maintaining to largely separate and different games simultaneously.
The real problem this divide creates is that you end up with two very different types of players playing two very different games; and the fundamental design of those two games is so dissimilar that conceptual changes to either game break the other.
Anyhow, keep this in mind.
Long comment, part 2.
Now, to my illicit lover, Perma-Death.
You won't often see me talking about this, because while I love the concept of Perma-Death, the reality is that it simply doesn't work in traditional MMO design. The fundamental reason is fairly simple: PD play is based, as Lessa notes( http://www.massiveonlinegamer.com/news/reviews/235-another-look-at-perma-death-in-ddo- ) on the journey, not the destination. In order to support this well, the levelling process, the character growth, is the most important part.
Now, while players can adapt this to any game (we player sorts are good at making any game OUR game if we want it to be) "endgame" play is inherently at odds with PD.
The best game then, for PD play is a games with no endgame, such as Eve. It's a game of constant growth and progression. However, in order to manage this effectively a gradual progression system is required - a skill based progression system ideally - where characters grown more in toolbox size than direct power (though, obviously, power as well).
The reason for this is in a PD environment, you will end up with characters of widely varing points in the progression system looking to play together regularly. Mentoring systems (bring everyone up to the highest characters level or what have you) do not work well for this - they are good in current, traditional MMO's - but when multi-level grouping is the norm, it's just too artificial.
So, then, the base design of the game needs to be focused on the levelling process itself. It needs to be open ended, because endgame play as we know it (re: raiding) and PD play are directly at ends.
However, interestingly, challenge is actually MORE important in a PD game than a traditional game. You need to have encounters that are very challenging throughout the game. This sort of progression system works well for that, because there are not large power gaps between levels, it's easier to make genuinely challenging encounters.
Gear must play a much reduced role in character power, because the "gear grind" is at direct odds with PD play. Repetitive grinding of challenging encounters(where you'd reward more powerful gear) either returns a cripplingly high death rate, or is nerfed into oblivion to avoid that... then becomes a senseless grind. Either way breaks PD play.
It's important for the visual design of mobs/environs to convey the difficulty, given the high price of death. Also, some of the more important skills available for a character to learn are "escape" type skills - so players can feel out encounters and flee if they are outmatched... sometimes.
This sort of base design is often proposed in PvP-centric games, but it doesn't need to be that way. While open looting should certainly be allowed in a PD setting (it's silly otherwise) you absolutely can - and I feel this is a real need - have a PvE centric PD game. In fact, you have to have careful controls over PvP play in a PD game for obvious reasons.
Not necessary, but a very good concept would be bringing Champion's Online's @name concept over to a PD game: It would help "link" your varied toons together, and help in the PvP control aspect from a social level. Someone who viciously kills others can be hunted in all his incarnations.
Also, role players can find an immediate home in a PD setting. Players tend to be more patient and mature, and the nature of the resulting gameplay is far more conductive to a RP environment.
And the last one, I promise!
High End Encounter Design:
Best of all, in my opinion, is that extremely challenging encounters are GOOD to have. Virtually impossible ones, even. Players are cautious, and won't just wipe/respawn/wipe/respawn to learn them. Far fewer, then, are required. A massive dragon, for example, visually presents the appropriate difficulty (It's a massive dragon!) and doesn't need to be very carefully tuned. It can be originally designed as impossible. If it's non-instanced, eventually players will get enough people together to get it down, and it becomes a real goal. Fewer of these encounters need be designed because downing one is a huge accomplishment, not something that needs to be repeated weekly by every group of 10 players looking for gear.
Best of all, deaths mean something in an encounter like this. You really get into it, and if the creature was downed it's a huge accomplishment. Perhaps your character died, but he died in accomplishing something *grand*. Not downing a typical raid boss which was tuned to be defeatable, but in besting something that was designed to be virtually impossible. This creates the best gaming memories, IMHO. These encounters can be "one shot" deals, too; introduced to the game until they are defeated, then removed from the game. As development time going into them is much less than a full traditional raid, it's a better dev-time:content investment. In this case, the content design is about it's presence and potential rather than the actual battle. Knowing that huge, scary monster is there, that it'll probably mean your characters death... That's the real return on investment, though it's less quantifiable.
Because the game isn't "end-game centric", because character progession isn't based on defeating these sorts of encounters, they are entirely optional. Not optional like a traditional PvE MMO's raids (you don't have to do them, but if you don't, you can't progress) but REALLY optional. You attempt them because they've never been done, because you'll risk your characters life to accomplish that. Massive rewards are less necessary; a title, for example, is a valuable reward here: You've really accomplished something noteworthy. Any rewards that do come from it should apply to everyone - wealth, fame, etc. A single reward like a weapon is a bad idea, because it just pushes towards grinding... and in a one-shot encounter that doesn't work. You're not aiming for a regular "kill them every week to gradually gear up your friends", but it's silly to have the critter drop 60 swords. Crafting mats can go a long ways, though, and offers potential for really epic stuff, as they can be distributed evenly... Dragon scales, for example =)
I'm gonna go play some roguelike games now.
Ok, I said the last one would be the last, but I lied. I have to say this:
Craving death? No... Craving MEANING.
Without real risk (and even penalties like XP loss, gear damage, expense) there can be no real meaning in your actions. You can't really be a villian if your character just respawns after you die (even if you need to get gear again), because there can be no real threat to you. Being killed ends your villany. you could make a new toon... but he'd be a new toon.
It's this, the real risk, that adds real meaning. It makes every success, every failure so much better.
Everything tastes so much better when you're starving.
@Derrick: very nice analysis. Time ago, on Slashdot someone proposed an idea which links PD and "normal" gaming, which I found extremely interesting: the idea is that a player does not play a single character, but a FAMILY. Characters die and are replaced by sons/brothers, which can inherit wealth, skills, or even special abilities and quests linked to the previous character (i.e. the son of someone slain by a dragon may end up having dragon-slaying special abilities, e.g. a super-berserk skill which can only be activated against dragons).
So one the one side you need to care for the current character, since if you lose it, you'll lose part of what you have gained, but since everything you earn will not be completely lost upon death, the death of the character does not mean that all the past was endless grinding, since some of the results are passed over.
BTW side question: did you enjoy doing achievements like "Immortal" in WoW? Those achievements are similar to a PD approach, where one single error can bring you back to case zero.
Re: Immortal.
No, I didn't much enjoy those, but for the same reasons as to why PD just can't work in a traditional MMO. First, and obviously, those achievements required EVERYONE survive. One random person doing something stupid/losing focus/having lag and it's all over for that week.
Second, the encounters are designed in a narrow tuning band, where they are highly lethal (this doesn't mean difficult, just that it's very easy to die) and with the understanding that individual death is largely inconsequential. Outside that narrow band, the encounters are trivially easy. This is a flaw (or feature, depending on your perspective and design goals) of the tier based gear progression WoW uses.
Andrew I will tell you that shortly after my Vanilla WOW guild idea did not work, I went to DDO. Much like you I was drawn to PD play, and I joined Mortal Voyage on the Argonessen server. I will tell you this also...READ THE RULES!!! The "minor" rules make it even harder than it seems, which some of your posters may not be familiar with.
1. Always run on the hardest difficulty available.
- This means soloing alot of quests meant for groups, or running quests in the hardest difficulty with few players.
-Alot of low level casters on elite can one-shot any non tank.
-This effectively means that you can not farm quests for loot or exp.
2. Only ONE item may be transferred to your next character on death.
3. You may not use the Auction House to purchase items, nor can you purchase potions from vendors. Additionally no magic items may be purchased from vendors, only masterwork.
-All of that basically means that it is very difficult to get gear that you can USE that is also good.
4. You can not group with non PD characters.
- Alot of the time there may not be any other PD toons on your level, so you end up having to solo alot of material, which can be boring if it is your second or third time doing it.
I don't say this to dissuade you, only to make sure you are aware of what you are signing up for.
That said.
Permadeath play will change the entire way you look at the game.
@Derrick:
I think that your blanket assertion that "PD just can't work in a traditional MMO" is not 100% correct. If I understand the logic that led you there, it is mostly the end game content tuning that leads you to make these claims.
But, if PD gaming is about the voyage, not the destination - as asserted by many PD players - then the problems at the final end game are not as destructive to the game play ideal as you make them out to be.
---------
@Adam:
I've read the rules of four PD guilds, and MV's are the second hardest that I've come across.
Most guilds certainly discourage farming or other activities that lead to easy gear, and it sort of makes sense since the goal is to emulate tabletop gaming much more closely than MMOs usually do.
If you can get a group then that would be ideal... so guild population is definitely a huge factor.
I'll be doing my homework.
@Andrew:
Sorry, I could often do to be more concise and less rambly, as I tend to obscure my point somewhat. What I was trying to get at is that there are two different games, and in "traditional" MMO's, the focus - designer and player - is primarily on the endgame. Thus, the "Journey" part is hollow and tedious.
Yes, you can make it work. You could run a PD guild in WoW, and much like how you can run RP guilds in WoW it would *work*, but not terribly well.
The levelling game is simply too flat in traditional MMO's. It doesn't provide enough of a challenge to really make for an enthralling PD game.
For clarity: In those posts, I'm not talking about PD guilds in regular games. I'm talking about perma death as an actual game mechanic.
Wow! I have been linked and I didn't even know it! :D
I am Lessah on the DDO Forums, send me a PM, let me show you MY Game.
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